Ella Finerās work in sound and performance spans writing, composing, and curating. Her practice reflects a particular interest in womenās voices, space and the hegemonic order of privilege.
Urok Shirhan‘s work is situated at the intersection of performance, visual arts and critical theory ā explores the politics of sound, image and speech in relation to power and affect.
Given their shared interest in the intersections of voice, culture and agency through radio, performance and music, for this Salon Ella and Urok engage in sounding out the medium of Zoom, and its move from conference software to broadcast platform. Recalling a recording they made in Athens that is left unplayed, they go on air online to consider instead the dramaturgical decisions that pertain to the ethics of usage: what is right and what is necessary to bring into a live transmission. Their conversation also brings into the air ambient sounds from London and the radio stationĀ Radio Alhara.
Screenshot of the covered cameras of Ella Finer and Urok Shirhan.
Companion Sounds
[00:00:23] INTRO
āDuÅ”kaĀ RadosavljeviÄ: Hello and welcome to the Salon! Our guests today are Ella Finer andĀ UrokĀ Shirhan.Ā
Ella Finerās work in sound and performance spans writing, composingĀ and curating. Her practice reflects a particular interest in womenās voices, space and the hegemonic order of privilege. Her research continuously queries the ownership of cultural expression through sound, which informs her lectures, performances, and events, including recent works in progressĀ Burning House/Burning HorseĀ for Almanac Productions, andĀ The Silent Whale and The Mute Swan, withĀ VibekeĀ Mascini.Ā Ella is the author of the bookĀ Acoustic Commons and the Wild Life ofĀ SoundĀ (Errant Bodies, Berlin), andĀ the recently published essays āFeminism and Soundā and āListening in Uncommon Timesā.Ā
UrokĀ ShirhanāsĀ work ā situated at the intersection of performance, visual arts and critical theory ā explores the politics of sound, image and speech in relation to power and affect. Her projects are often entangled with found materials and narratives informed by her biography and family history of political migrations.Ā UrokĀ holds an MAĀ (Hons)Ā in Visual Cultures from Goldsmiths College, University of London, and is currently a Research Fellow at BAK in Utrecht,Ā Netherlands. She has been an artist in residence at the Delfina Foundation in London and has held fellowships at the Royal Dutch Academy of Arts and Sciences (KNAW) in Amsterdam,Ā Jan van Eyck Academy in Maastricht, and Ashkal Alwan in Beirut, Lebanon.Ā
UrokĀ ShirhanĀ and Ella FinerĀ met in Athens in January 2020 as part of theĀ TheatrumĀ Mundi and OnassisĀ StegiĀ project The City Talks Back. Given their shared interest in the intersections of voice, culture and agency through radio, performance and music, for this Salon Ella andĀ UrokĀ engage in sounding out the medium of Zoom, and its move from conference software to broadcast platform. Recalling a recording they made in Athens that is leftĀ unplayed, they go on air online to consider instead the dramaturgical decisions that pertain to the ethics of usage: what is rightĀ and what is necessary to bring back into a live transmission.Ā
This conversation took place on Zoom on 16thĀ June 2020, between London and Utrecht.Ā
[00:03:00] SALON
UrokĀ Shirhan:Ā āThis meeting is being recorded.āĀ
Ella Finer:Ā āBy continuing to be in the meeting, you are consenting to be recorded.āĀ āLeave meetingā ā no, Iām joking.Ā
US:Ā Leave immediately!Ā SoĀ we’re here. Weāre live!Ā
EF:Ā We are!Ā SoĀ here we are,Ā live in Zoom again.Ā
US:Ā Here we are live on Zoom. This week on: Live on Zoom.Ā
EF:Ā I know. I actually think that you are the person that I have spoken to most on Zoom in this time.Ā
US:Ā Oh really?Ā
EF:Ā In fact, you’re my only contact on Zoom.Ā
US: Oh no! [Laughter].Ā
EF:Ā I love the fact that you say āoh noā to that, like that’s really sad.Ā
US:Ā No, I don’t know. It’s like super cute, but also a little bit like ā comeĀ on, it sounds a little like: āYouāre my only friend.āĀ
EF:Ā Yeah. I know. Youāre my only friend.Ā
US:Ā But also, I mean I have four people on Zoom, and you’re the personĀ I alsoĀ most frequently speak to āĀ also voluntarily frequently speak to.Ā
EF:Ā Right. Okay.Ā
US:Ā Oh my god!Ā
EF:Ā IĀ know.Ā It feels ā but this does ā it feels different.Ā SoĀ we’ve gone live, and we decided to really think about what it is to broadcast live in this conversation, even though we’ve spokenĀ about it so many times before, I think the feeling has shifted in this, becauseāĀ
US:Ā Definitely!Ā
EF:Ā āspeaking out to future you, whoever you are. AndĀ alsoĀ because ā I don’t know how much you want to speak about the day we’ve had, getting to this point in relation to a sound cue, but I think it speaks very much to why going live felt like the best thing to do.Ā
US:Ā The most appropriate, yes.Ā
[Background sounds.]Ā
EF:Ā The most appropriate.Ā
US:Ā Oh, you know what? I can actually feel the suppressed sound coming through.Ā
EF:Ā Is it my suppressed sound?Ā
US:Ā TheĀ formerly known asĀ āsuppressed soundā, yes.Ā
EF:Ā SoĀ have you gotā?Ā
US:Ā I can hear things I couldn’t really hear before.Ā
EF:Ā SoĀ have I got some background?Ā
US:Ā Yes, there is some background. There is some ā there’s dimensionality to your sound.Ā
EF:Ā Is it actually perceivable? Can you work out what it is?Ā
US:Ā I could hear backgrounds, like children chatting.Ā
EF:Ā Wow!Ā That’s quite amazing! SoĀ maybe to give some kind of context to those who are listening, we have had many conversations while on Zoom, about Zoom and about the audio settings of Zoom, andĀ Urok has become something of an expert on Zoom audio. And the kind of strange didactic language that Zoom uses in its settings for audio, such as suppressing sound āaggressivelyā, and usingĀ āintelligent learningāĀ to work out what to blank out of the excessive sounds.Ā
US:Ā āDeep learning.āĀ
EF:Ā Deep learning. What did I call it?Ā
US:Ā Oh my god, I instantly forgot.Ā
EF:Ā Youāre not listening to me!Ā
US:Ā No, but I knew that it wasn’t that ā I knew that I wasāĀ
EF:Ā Iām joking. Yeah.Ā
US:Ā Like ā intelligent learning? I don’t know.Ā
EF:Ā Intelligent ā oh yeah, that’s it.Ā
US:Ā We have two moments of sound that we are sharing with each other. We haven’t yet decided who’sĀ going toĀ go when, and with that, who’sĀ going toĀ go first.Ā
EF:Ā Or we go at the same time?Ā
US:Ā We go at the same time? But what if one overpowers the other?Ā
EF:Ā Then maybe that’s the risk that we have to take.Ā
US:Ā I didn’t know we were going to go at the same time.Ā
EF:Ā Well,Ā I didn’t know we were going to go one after theĀ other,Ā but I think thisĀ isāĀ
US:Ā Are we doing it? Oh my god! Thatās the best! This is great!Ā
EF:Ā Yeah, I thinkĀ this speaks to what we’ve been asked to converse about, which is what is this task of thinking of sound dramaturgically, and we’re doing it in the live.Ā
US:Ā Okay, I’m finding itās actually quite interesting because this speaks to a couple of things. One of them is again, something related somewhat to Zoom or the experience of Zoom, and observing your experience of Zoom as well, which has to do with this suppressing of theĀ background noises.Ā SoĀ I’ve been in a few conversations where there were several people and you includedĀ whereinĀ you would be speaking and at some point,Ā like mid-sentence, you wouldĀ kind of stop,Ā and be searching,Ā and wonder like,Ā just ask like where the sound is, or like where ā like, basically, you would say like: āI just feel like I’m alone in a room, speakingā, because of not having any kind of background noise. And obviously, like ā so, evenĀ when people are not muted,Ā self-muting their microphones āĀ there is the suppression of the sound, which is what you were experiencing. But I’m also just thinking about now that we’re considering this simultaneous live background noise āĀ and I’m hearing some of itĀ [sounds of children shouting]Ā ā or like sharing someĀ ofāĀ
[Laughter.]Ā
EF:Ā I told them to be quiet.Ā
US:Ā Well, maybe this is quiet to them. But this kind ofĀ sharing sound simultaneously and what does that sound like, and what if one overpowers the other?Ā It suddenly is dawning on me how in a way, we’ve becomeĀ also used to this muting,Ā self-muting, so that we only ever experience one sound at a time. Whenever anyone is speaking, there is this automatically suppressed backgroundĀ sound.Ā SoĀ it’sĀ onlyĀ thisĀ voice.Ā OnlyĀ whenĀ voiceĀ isĀ produced, that’sĀ whatĀ getsĀ re-producedĀ byĀ ZoomĀ ā I guess I don’t knowĀ ifĀ IĀ haveĀ moreĀ toĀ sayĀ about that at this point, but this kind of like sounds not being able to cross, and just too much informationĀ kindĀ ofĀ beingĀ literallyĀ andĀ figurativelyĀ suppressed.Ā
EF:Ā Yeah.Ā Well,Ā I was thinking in relation to that, that it’s just not a broadcast medium, Zoom. And actually, it really kind of betrays the fact that it’s made for conferencing, and for theĀ one voice to speak, not for collective, youĀ know,Ā babble, conversation or chaos, or crowds, but actually, something that’s about the singular voice, making their point. And even these functions, like the hand up, etĀ cetera, it kind of shapes a conversation in a really particularĀ way.Ā SoĀ I think part of being asked to do this on Zoom, I think we both feltĀ [sound of door closing]Ā ā like, for example, did you hear that door?Ā
US:Ā Yeah.Ā
EF:Ā Yeah, so, that wasn’t suppressed by the excellent machine learning of Zoom. But you know, there was something about the kind of messiness of Zoom ā like, what actually kind ofĀ breaks the system ā that I found really interesting in thinking about dramaturgies of sound, and in relation to our ongoing conversations about liveness, and actually what that has meant in this time.Ā We’veĀ spoken about this a lot, but also this very particular moment,Ā you’ve identified something in it about a shift in how people are now attending toĀ live sound. For example, liveĀ radio, which is what a lot of your work is about and focuses on, and you’ve identifiedĀ things are changing āĀ itāsĀ not a coincidence that lockdowns are being lifted. What is this condition of listeningĀ now,Ā collectively, for us all? AndĀ soĀ thinking about Zoom not as a broadcast medium, I think it’s actually interesting, because it means people choose who they gather with. And the fact that it’s being used for galleries and talks and stuff, andĀ thereāve been Zoom bombers and everything, theĀ systemāsĀ obviously had to adapt, hasn’t it?Ā ItāsĀ had to adapt to being a broadcast medium.Ā
US:Ā Yeah, I always forget about theseĀ Zoom bombers!Ā
EF:Ā Oh, they were so two months ago.Ā
US:Ā I constantly keep forgetting about this phenomenon. Thatās a whole other thing, itās hijacking.Ā Ā
EF:Ā Imagine if we got Zoom-bombed now.Ā Ā
US:Ā It would just be crazy!Ā
EF:Ā Well, in some ways, my kids are doing that from the other room.Ā
US:Ā Oh, but bless them!Ā [Laughter.]Ā
EF:Ā Bless them. I mean this ā shallĀ we talk about how we got to this point of really focusing back on our interest in the live and the medium? And the medium asĀ broadcast, medium as radio, as kind of living through listening in this time, because we got here kind of by accident I guess in a way, by accident on purpose.Ā
US:Ā Today?Ā
EF:Ā Today, yes.Ā
US:Ā Yeah. Shall we?Ā
EF:Ā Yeah. I thinkāĀ
US:Ā WeĀ can do that.Ā WeĀ can do it the other way around ā we can start with ourĀ sounds.Ā
EF:Ā Yeah. ShallĀ we ā do you want to do it at the same time?Ā
US:Ā Yeah, let’s do it at the same time.Ā
EF:Ā We can try it.Ā
US:Ā Yeah, let’s do that. Okay.Ā
EF:Ā So ā okay.Ā
US:Ā SoĀ here we go.Ā
[00:12:50 to 00:13:40] Ambient sound from a London flat and RadioĀ AlharaĀ
EF:Ā Thatās me. Could you hear me?Ā
US:Ā Yeah.Ā
EF:Ā Could you hear my sounds?Ā
US:Ā Yeah. Can you still hear mine?Ā
[00:13:40 to 00:14:14] Radio AlharaĀ
EF:Ā Yeah, but that was ā I can still hear yours.Ā
US:Ā Shall we come back?Ā
EF:Ā Shall we come back?Ā
US:Ā Letās do it.Ā
EF:Ā That was really interesting, because it was a bit like the version of you saying about me freakingĀ out in sonically-clean room, empty rooms ā because I could only hear you. It was like reversal, I could only hear your soundscape, and mine was kind of absented.Ā
US:Ā But that’s why I was so surprised, like: āOh, we’re doing at the same time!ā I mean I could kind of imagine,Ā knowing what I was going to do,Ā that mine would overpower somethingĀ else. Or disrupt, or kind of mask something else.Ā
EF:Ā But we don’t know how it sounds.Ā
US:Ā I mean, I could still hear you, but also ā yeah, I could still hear like some background noise on this end.Ā
EF:Ā That’s interesting, because I couldn’t hear anything of mine.Ā Okay,Ā so we also do not know how those two together sound, because we’re in Zoom.Ā SoĀ we don’t know how they soundĀ together.Ā Only those who are listening do.Ā SoĀ these are,Ā what? Kind of sonic environments of being strangely at home in this time, this kind of constant sonic worlds. And if it wasn’tĀ obvious,Ā Urok, you were playing the radio station that hasāĀ
US:Ā āchanged my life.Ā
EF:Ā Exactly! AndĀ it’s been there with you this whole time, you’ve been in it,Ā youāve been in it, listening this wholeāĀ
US:Ā Completely in it, yes. I was just thinking thatĀ in both our cases, these were live sounds, like little sound bites, that in both cases we wouldn’t know precisely what was going to be on.Ā YouĀ know,Ā in your case, there was this loud siren, but you know just now it happened to be quiet or a motorcycle passed. And in my case, it was a song that sounded like a gospel song that was just finishing. ThenĀ we heard two of the radio jingles, which I thought was a nice little moment of like the radio making itself known to all,Ā to our listeners, basically.Ā SoĀ we both actively tuned into ā I was thinking that in your case, maybeĀ itāsĀ background noise, or I don’t know if we can say background noise and background sound.Ā We can differentiateĀ āĀ I don’t know ifĀ it’s important to doĀ so.Ā
EF:Ā I could have just played just me, sitting here, and you’d have heard people screaming in the background. There’s something about a sound that becomes so much a constant of thisĀ time, because I’ve been at home for so long, which is ā I don’t know if you heard them but skateboarders, because there’s a skate park just over there,Ā so the sounds of like clicking, clicking boards and rolling wheels, which you can hear so loudĀ āĀ the sound of theĀ motorbikes, the sound of the siren. And it just being there, constant,Ā like a low constant hum that I tune in and out of a bit. And I guess I’m thinking,Ā because you said about playing theĀ radio, like actually what if you came into my spaceĀ nowĀ as aĀ caller,Ā that’s also what you might get: windows open, that sound in the space. And alsoĀ getting you listening to this very particular radio station, so it’s mostly about the constant. It’sĀ aboutĀ theĀ kindĀ of low constant, almost companion sound which weāve been listening to.Ā
US:Ā Yeah. I think ācompanion soundā,Ā that sounds nice.Ā
EF: āCompanion soundā.Ā
US: It kind of covers a large area.Ā
EF:Ā I thinkĀ this maybe is useful time to relate it to the story of getting here, because this is also a story of liveness in a very particular time, of live sound playing out andĀ through a time which we all know is a time of the pandemic and also now, in recent weeks, a time of mass protests. And when we met for the second time, we were in Greece, and this is when Greece locked down, in the time that we met for the second time.Ā
US:Ā Yes.Ā
EF:Ā And we actually happened to be recording when the alert went out ā soĀ audio recording the moment in which the alert went out to say: āEveryone now stay at home.āĀ
US:Ā Yes, this is the national alert that goes to all phones actually in the country.Ā SoĀ it had gone offĀ on my phone even, even though I have a Dutch phone subscription.Ā
EF:Ā I think the reason why also we mightĀ ā if people can’t see usĀ āĀ why we might be also looking at each other almost stunned by the remembrance of this time, because itĀ wasĀ stunning. And listening to the recording it feels very affecting, and odd, and alsoĀ tender,Ā because it’s with people who weādĀ only metĀ ā well, that one person, who would weād only first met that night, and who very generously said:Ā āYeah,Ā you can record this whole evening.ā Three hours of recording or something, and in the middle, this alarm. AndĀ actually this was when we were invited to have this conversation, this immediately was the sonic cue that I think weĀ sharedĀ asĀ an audio piece that would both anchor and mark a certain timeĀ and dateĀ āĀ date a recording but also date us in thatĀ space,Ā andĀ alsoĀ speakĀ toĀ whatĀ thisĀ timeĀ isĀ now,Ā youĀ know,Ā asĀ lockdownĀ lifts.Ā This kind of arc in a sense. And then today we’ve had this day reworking our way through the use of this recording, through the ethics of using recorded sound out of context and out of time. And also, given our recent conversation about the feeling about the ways that listening isĀ shifting, it felt then really not right to play that recording here.Ā
US:Ā Out of its initial sort of properties, its time, like the context and the other conversation partners. I’m not sure if it’sĀ about ārightā, like, they ādidn’t feel necessarily rightā. Maybe we were also already feeling like maybe it’s not necessary? I mean, obviously the sound itself is profound. The fact that we even have a recording of it is bizarre. It is so bizarre that we have this moment.Ā WeĀ have the before ā we have this moment, thisĀ marker,Ā the sonic marker ā and thenĀ we have theĀ after,Ā in which sounds andĀ ālifeā, between quotes, goes on, except it is now ā I mean, we know it is forever changed. And we have that momentĀ in which sonically we can hear when that moment happened in time.Ā WeĀ knew in that moment that this was ā I mean, it was also frightening and it was disturbing as a sound, like as something that was coming out. And as we were like having this completely other mode and listening to all kinds of like music, andĀ having conversations, and thenĀ thisĀ outside āĀ this message from the state ringing the alarm, the state alarm, the alert to all, everybody’s phones, and also knowing that this is theĀ sound that everyone in the country is hearing or overhearing from someone nearby with the alert saying: āEmergency: this has now happened.āĀ In other words,Ā life as you know it is suspended for the time being.Ā SoĀ it’s bizarre that we even have a record of that, but to convey that or to share that with people who were not present, maybeĀ hearing it might not necessarily be āĀ at least, not the onlyĀ way.Ā
EF:Ā Well,Ā that brings up such interesting things aboutĀ how alsoĀ we might want people to hear a certain ā or expect, or assume people might hear a certain sound, and actually it just not falling, not registering it, it being in a different frequency for some people. And IĀ think actually just to go back to the point you make at the beginning of considering why weāre notĀ using this file, the kind of missing sound inĀ all this and saying it wasn’t perhaps necessary and me sayingĀ āit didn’t feel rightā, and thinking about these as almost dramaturgical decisions for a sonic environment that we’re makingĀ now.Ā So it doesn’t feel necessary now,Ā because we’re thinking about who’s listening and the places, perhaps, that they areĀ now.Ā AndĀ also they’re not listeningĀ now,Ā they’reĀ listening āĀ āHello,Ā inĀ twoĀ monthsĀ orĀ threeĀ monthsā,Ā youĀ know?Ā āHelloĀ inĀ September 2020, what are you?ā And so, it’s reallyĀ thinking forward about what also mightĀ land differently then. And thenĀ to bring it back to rights, because it’s something we’veĀ talkedĀ about āĀ aboutĀ copyright,Ā andĀ about,Ā youĀ know,Ā forĀ whomĀ theseĀ decisionsĀ areĀ made āĀ I’ve just been told my internet connection is unstable.Ā
US:Ā Oh, byĀ Zoom? Zoom, leave us alone, god!Ā
EF:Ā By Zoom. IĀ know,Ā itāsĀ the ghost in the machine.Ā ItāsĀ the voice, the dramaturgical voice, coming out of Zoom.Ā SoĀ to think about for whom are we making such decisions of speaking on behalf of this recording. And the fact we had two other people in the room as well, as you mentioned. IĀ think these two questions are really ā I think they pointĀ toĀ soĀ much elseāĀ
[Silence.]Ā
US:Ā Oh, youāre frozen. You are frozen. No?Ā
EF:Ā Okay.Ā I mean, there you go!Ā
US:Ā Okay, you were saying ā wait, you were saying?Ā
EF:Ā I was saying about accountability, and thenĀ Zoom decided to vomit me out.Ā
US:Ā Are you are you happy, Zoom? Did you just hear that? Yeah. Yes, we’re talking about you, entity.Ā
EF:Ā Because this is something we have been talking about in the live, isn’t it? And the kind of the,Ā you know, how actually in your listening to the radio station, for example, because it’s all happening in domestic space, kind of DIY space, you hear a lot of what happens behind the scenes.Ā
US:Ā Yes,Ā yes,Ā precisely,Ā these precious āĀ I’ve been calling these moments very precious ā yeah, I guess, certain activities or things that one normally doesn’tĀ hear.Ā Not onĀ the radio, not in events āĀ maybe in justĀ like some cases, like things that wouldĀ be considered mistakesĀ or…Ā And again this ā it’s actually,Ā what we’re talking aboutĀ ā aboutĀ the background sound. Like, it’s usually suppressed or we’ve learned to like clean it up,Ā clean up the recording, useĀ the little pop screen, let’s not have this kindĀ of additional stuff. And I meanĀ there are good reasons for that often, but a lot has been lost so that we haven’t been able toĀ hear these unpolished soundsĀ or situations. And I guess Radio AlharaĀ āĀ this is likeĀ my main companion, my sonic companion and IĀ guess otherwise companion inĀ generalĀ throughout this lockdownĀ āĀ came to life on 20thĀ March, I checked this recently, 20thĀ March, and along with several otherĀ online kind of ad hoc radio stations. I do believe it’s one of the few that have actually survived up untilĀ todayĀ or that are still running, that let’s say are alsoĀ still powering through with lots ofĀ energy,Ā and still like some really amazing programming, and a vibrant kind of community that they’ve been able to power through the easing up of theĀ lockdowns.Ā SoĀ from what IĀ gather,Ā a bunch of other radio stations that also came toĀ lifeĀ in the Middle East in this same time, a lot of them actually stopped broadcasting inĀ the past week, orĀ maybe two or three weeks ago, let’sĀ say,Ā end ofĀ May,Ā when the very strict lockdowns that had been imposedĀ throughout the Middle East were lifted.Ā SoĀ you have thisĀ quite,Ā as I was saying to you the other day,Ā aĀ more strictĀ experience thanĀ like you in London and me inĀ the Netherlands have experienced in terms ofĀ measures being taken. AndĀ I have something else I wanted to say about the lockdown ā but yeah, so that’s RadioĀ Alhara, and it has somehowĀ captivated so many,Ā so many different people. I think also through very much this live and aliveness, and this is also why it’s been this true companion, andĀ very,Ā very quickly became also a source of wonder and of activation of so many different questions, andĀ ā yeah different questionsĀ and understandings of listening, of sound, of listeningĀ together,Ā of tuning in, of what constitutes live, what makes live feel live versus ā sometimes things are live but they don’t have thatĀ quality.Ā Oh my god, have you frozen?Ā
[Silence.]Ā
US:Ā Oh no!Ā YouĀ weren’t ā oh no, you weren’t listening, were you? OhĀ dear!Ā
EF:Ā Hello, old friend.Ā
US:Ā Hello!Ā
EF:Ā SoĀ I was just saying, blackout is happening,Ā is upon me, because I keep ā myĀ internet connection is unstable, soāĀ
US:Ā I mean,Ā usually,Ā it happens to me, actually. I’m the one getting the notification. I had to instruct āĀ I opened the door of the closetĀ where the modem is, I had to ask for people to just like ā well, people being my parents ā like: āPlease don’t you ā don’t like play lotsĀ ofĀ videos maybe, just for likeĀ an hour!ā Like,Ā just so that we don’t over ā kind of,Ā yeah.Ā
EF:Ā Your parents, my children: āGet offĀ the internet!ā But this is why I wasĀ sayingāĀ
US:Ā Oh my god, that is so funny!Ā
EF:Ā āeveryone’s on the internet. Everything online! As I just said in the break,Ā this is not a broadcast medium.Ā SoĀ it’s going to happen, and all this āCan you hear me?ā, that you said at the beginning. Like now, people, are: āYou okay? Can you? Yeah? You can hear me. Can you see me?āĀ
US:Ā āAm I frozen?āĀ
EF:Ā Itās just aĀ whole new world.Ā SoĀ when I left you, you were talking aboutāĀ
US:Ā I was ā oh, right, I was saying how like all these questions around sound, around tuning in, around liveness, and around what makesĀ āliveā,Ā anything ā live event, live gathering, live broadcast feel live or alive. Right?Ā SoĀ there are factors. So as my interest, and also enjoyment, and kind of wonder around so many aspects of Radio Alhara, sometimes particular programming, sometimes it’s the host, or how the host embraced their role as a host, like, as a radio host.Ā These are five friends, like none of them have made radio before. As far as IĀ know,Ā theyĀ don’t, youĀ know,Ā they don’t work on sound-anything specifically. A couple of them are DJs or do work with music, some more than others, butĀ they,Ā like, I think most of āĀ I mean, four of them for sure have different day jobs, let’sĀ say,Ā from design to architecture to arts. But none of themĀ have actually done this before. They’veĀ organised events, they have a lot ofĀ experienceĀ in producing events, producing and organising things like running an art space, producing a lecture, things like that, but not radio. And certainly not being hosts in thatĀ way,Ā not having that role.Ā SoĀ like someone kind ofĀ growing into their like role and familiarising themselves with the role of ā I mean, hosting, basically like youĀ know,Ā speaking inĀ between some of the programmes, and saying something about what the listeners have just heard, and what might be coming up, and sort of freestyling. And the listenersĀ familiarising themselvesĀ with this voiceĀ or different voices that may or may not be particularly ā how do you call it? ā they’re not really the usual kinds of voices that you would hear onĀ a radio. I don’t know how elseĀ to sayĀ it. Like, there have beenĀ the qualities of certain voices, which ā that’s a whole other thing ā that normally, you don’t hear them, like anĀ announcer,Ā you know? Like to some people you say: āOh, you have such a great radio voice!ā orĀ āYouĀ have like such a greatāā And to otherĀ people you don’t say that.Ā YouĀ know what I mean? And like some of the things are wild!Ā
EF:Ā I like that itās something you say.Ā
US:Ā Like, this thing where I even was like: āOh, what is this voice? Like, it sounds different, strange. I’m not used to like hearing this!ā And also, just like uh-ingĀ a lot, like:Ā āUuhā,Ā āSoĀ that was aĀ uuuhā,Ā āWe just heardĀ uuuhā, and at first I was like: āWhat? What is going on here? What is this?āĀ And thenĀ somehow but very quicklyĀ this became such an important part of everything else. Like,Ā yeah, it’s live, and it’s alive, andĀ there is this kindĀ of labour of love and dedication. And there is curating, there is a lot of care andĀ dedication,Ā and very high quality in terms of the programming or the people that comes through somehow, whichĀ has to do with the kinds of people and programming that they attract, andĀ also, select, right? And kind of encourage.Ā SoĀ very, very high quality of content. And atĀ the same time thisĀ very ā I donāt know, lo-fi, low-key likeĀ streaming from houses, fixingĀ ā this was a conversation that we had before, where I sent you a message at some point saying: āPlease, please, please tune in. Can you tune in to the radio right now? It is so precious,Ā they’re trying to fixĀ the audio connection live, on air.āĀ It was one of the main guys,Ā YousefĀ Anastas, who also happens to be one of the main radio voices, like hosts, who is based in Bethlehem, who was communicating with someone, who goes by the DJ handleĀ QaisĀ London ā I think his real name is Matt something ā who was in Amman, and they were conversing onĀ air like about: āWhere is theā? Wait, it’s notāĀ SoĀ wait, which one? No. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Hold on, no, no, no. No, the sound is still coming from yourĀ speaker.Ā Wait.Ā SoĀ which one is it? I can’t see it. It’s input/output.āĀ These kinds of things. And then, youĀ know,Ā that happens maybe for 30 seconds, andĀ then the music is back on, and it’s, let’s say smooth orĀ whatever,Ā it’s mixed properly and da–da–da and ā I’ve rambled for quite aĀ bit.Ā
EF:Ā Yeah.Ā No that’s not rambling.Ā ItāsĀ suchĀ an amazing moment thatĀ I was so glad that you pointed it out to me to listen to, because it made me think about so muchĀ radioĀ we do listenĀ to that’s mastered, and that’s cleaned, and who does master our sounds andĀ controls the way that we get selected audio material or edited material, which is something else we’ve been thinking about. And actually,Ā also, there’s something about the kindĀ ofĀ attitude or the ethos,Ā that kind of sensibility I guess of this radio station, which is:Ā āWe’reĀ broadcasting in the continuous. It’s live. If it stops and weāre fixing something, that’s part of the continuum of this time.āĀ And something that really struck me when you were talking about those who started the stationĀ not necessarily coming from sound,Ā I think it’s really ā ācoming from soundā, what on Earth does that mean? But it means ā no, no, IĀ know, exactly.Ā I just thought it sounded so ridiculous: āI come fromĀ sound.āĀ
US:Ā āI come from sound. Do you come from sound? Where do you come from?āĀ
EF:Ā Yeah:Ā āPictures.āĀ SoĀ I think it’s reallyĀ clear,Ā becauseĀ it’s like they were making a space, in which to meet, and to meet friends, and to meet allies, and to beĀ together,Ā to collectĀ together,Ā and gatherĀ together,Ā assemble in a time, when bodies can’t do that in physicalĀ proximity.Ā I think weāve spoken about this beforeĀ ā there is a feeling of being close in the live, and we’re talking about this at a time of course when theatres, where we usually go ā well,Ā I mean, youĀ know,Ā where we go,Ā but also, other kinds of performance spaces, galleries, where there’s performance,Ā dance spaces, stand–upĀ comedy,Ā where we go to be in physical relationships āĀ gigs, concerts, music venues, clubs ā in physical proximity with eachĀ other,Ā gather together with some kind of focusĀ ā and it’s happening with us, and we are in it while it is happening. AndĀ when we are in the conditions that we are now, where that’s not possibleĀ at all, and theatres are darkĀ and have been for so long ā these other spaces become even more important, and even more amplifyĀ these connections. Of course, Radio Alhara is doing other things as well, and the radio is distinct from theatre. But I think to talk about the live, and what we needĀ from that, orĀ where we feel like we belong in this time in a way, with others,Ā is really interesting, becauseĀ you’ve talked aboutĀ the chatroom as another place of belonging, I guess, and being in relation with others. And I also witnessed you doing something extraordinary in another chatroom, on the SoundĀ CampĀ chatroom, where you also kind of knew the rules of the game of the chatroom.Ā
US:Ā Of the chatroom? Yeah, I have a chatroom history.Ā
EF:Ā Yeah, you knew how to direct it, and I mean then that is really interesting, thinking aboutĀ the context, in which we’re speaking today, which is oral andĀ aural dramaturgiesĀ ā you’ve built up this kind of knowledge of actually how you direct traffic in response to communal listening. It’s absolutely fascinating!Ā
US:Ā I’m thinking,Ā I’m processing a lot of what you’re sayingĀ and I’m kind of connecting a couple of things, I think. I think I’m doing that in my head.Ā SoĀ I’m thinking about this, thinking about theatres, right, or the theatre, or theĀ whatever,Ā the conference, the auditorium, the cinemaĀ ā I don’t know ā likeĀ the place that you go with, like, the purpose of not being alone.Ā YouĀ can go alone but you won’t be by yourself.Ā YouĀ will witness something or hear something orĀ experience something, somehow.Ā YouĀ will like attend to something.Ā YouĀ attend an event. AndĀ it’sĀ only partially about the thing itself,Ā it’s only partially about the film or the concert, the music, how great it is, or that lecture. I mean, some of the lectures are also fine to just listen to later on or,Ā yeah, to listen back to somehow. But you go for something else,Ā you decide to go toĀ the thing for different reasons. Let’sĀ sayĀ if it’s a lecture or,Ā IĀ don’t know, a documentary film, for me it’s like I know I need toĀ go inĀ and watch something with other people, or watch it live, and in a way be seen orĀ be visible because I otherwise can’t concentrate.Ā SoĀ I need like a kindĀ ofĀ ā you know what I mean?Ā
EF:Ā Right: you need to be accountable for your listening. Right.Ā
US:Ā MaybeĀ it’s a little bit weird,Ā but like I need to like have a little bit ofĀ monitoring,Ā like aĀ weird ā or like something that coerces, thatĀ makesĀ meĀ like:Ā āOkay,Ā IĀ knowĀ IĀ needĀ toĀ likeĀ makeĀ it through. Like, let’s do this! Let me pay attention.āĀ Or, you know, I mean if it doesn’t interest me,Ā I can still zone out but the point is the intention.Ā
EF:Ā Yeah.Ā
US:Ā TheĀ intentionĀ isĀ āIĀ wantĀ toĀ reallyĀ tuneĀ intoĀ thisā,Ā andĀ toĀ beĀ inĀ aĀ spaceĀ whereĀ everyone,Ā or most people, are tuning in. And if maybeĀ IĀ didn’tĀ understand orĀ whatever,Ā youĀ canĀ also see each other tuning in or tuning out as well. It’s not just about how good it is. Like, it might be amazing but I need to know that I’m listening or attending with others and that they can see me somehow, thatĀ I’mĀ alsoĀ there.Ā It’sĀ notĀ justĀ thisĀ āĀ it’sĀ notĀ thisĀ participationĀ thing, youĀ know, it’s not all always aboutĀ that stuff, like: āOh, I just want ā I want to be able to participate.āĀ No!Ā IĀ mean,Ā I’mĀ notĀ alwaysĀ āĀ I’mĀ notĀ goingĀ toĀ beĀ theĀ personĀ alwaysĀ askingĀ a question when there’s question time, even if I have the questions. But I just need to feel presence and that I am ā I don’t know.Ā
EF:Ā No, I completely understand. I mean, you’re talking also about really particular kind of being present, say a lecture or something, a talk. ButĀ alsoĀ what started offĀ this conversation is us thinking: āOh,Ā whoah! We’re now going live, it’s formal. There’s something formalising this discussion, which isn’t just us having a chat on a Zoom call one night.Ā ActuallyĀ there’s a framework to it. AndĀ alsoĀ there are others listening somewhere.āĀ AndĀ yeah, and it changes the shape of how we speak and respond to eachĀ other,Ā attend.Ā You used that wordĀ āattendā. I think this is so interesting as well, considering that a lot of the time, a lot of the kind of speak around gathering together to participate ā to āparticipateā āĀ to be a part of a live event or even to just be witness to a live event, is also about being anonymous or the ability to go and be anonymous in aĀ crowd.Ā
US:Ā Right, but still be present,Ā to not be invisible. Anonymous is not about invisible.Ā
EF:Ā Right. But to also kind of be able toĀ have this very complex,Ā thisĀ complex matrix in a way of appearing, being visible but not being known, but being, but passing through, but attending to something then leaving. I meanĀ that body in that time is really very particular. And I think then, when we talk about the radio and yourĀ relationship with Radio Alhara, I mean, it’s not about: āOh, I’ve been with this radio station for so many weeks and IāmāāĀ I mean, you have actually participated in it, you’ve done a radio programme on it. I mean, do you forget it’s in the background? Do you feel there’s any kind of shape of experience that relates to that one, say, when you’re there, in body with the thing performing, the person performing? I mean, what are the ā I’m interested in how now you listen to it, that you’ve been listening to it for so many weeks. Can you kind of tune in and out of it?Ā
US:Ā To the station?Ā
EF:Ā Yeah.Ā
US:Ā SoĀ okay ā the thing is that, you know, it has been developing live, right, and things were also taking on speed and magnitude, even to them like as it went on, because of so many people attending to it. And so, it had been changing and shifting a lot.Ā What’s been also nice and interesting to follow, is that ā I mean, it is bizarre, I mean, I’m a total fanĀ girlĀ now.Ā Like, I know I sound like, I almost sound creepy when I talk about Radio Alhara but there’s so many fascinating aspects also about theĀ experienceĀ ofĀ time.Ā SoĀ thereĀ haveĀ beenĀ at some point like daily programmes, you know,Ā and some of them weren’t even likeĀ āmy favouriteā,Ā let’s say, like: āThis is my most favourite type of musicā, but I seeĀ and I hear and I recogniseĀ like: āOh, this is a daily showā, like a daily morning show or daily night show where this one person would,Ā da–da–da, play certain types of selections.Ā SoĀ a dailyĀ thing at a certain hour. Imagine, youĀ know,Ā when you have no routine, nothing,Ā but then suddenly there’s this daily thing. Then there were quite early on, let’sĀ say,Ā weekly shows.Ā SoĀ suddenly there is an identity, days have a kind of flavourĀ rather than it justĀ being like one big sort ofĀ blob of like: āIs itĀ Tuesday?Ā I don’t know.āĀ And again, funnily enough, it’s not just about like: āOh, but it’s my favouriteĀ show,Ā and that’s why I know what day it is.āĀ It’s just,Ā youĀ know,Ā it starts to kind of enter my awareness, or likeĀ myāĀ
EF:Ā āyour rhythm. Itās in your rhythm within.Ā
US:Ā Yeah.Ā SoĀ even if I’m not always like 100% like in it but, youĀ know,Ā sometimes I’m just listening, like it’s radio. I turned it on and I’m doing other stuff. And then something will happen,Ā I’m like: āOh, this show is on, it must beĀ Tuesday.āĀ YouĀ know.Ā Or: āOh the Monday night thing. Oh okay.āĀ Or:Ā āThis nameā, like there’s this like familiarity and then, intersperse āĀ there’s lots of kind of like weekly shows, certain things that only happen on Saturdays, on Fridays, etc. And yet, still a lot of just new stuff, you know?SoĀ then, suddenly, you think like: āOh, is this going to be a rut, or like youĀ knowĀ all the weekly stuff, same people da–da–daā, and then boom, new idea, newĀ concept, newĀ show.Ā One of my latest absoluteĀ favourite shows is the music request showĀ āĀ which actually is going to be on in half an hourĀ āĀ where people can submit live requests for songs. Or like,Ā no they’re not requests theyāre dedications.Ā SoĀ through the chat or through ZoomĀ you can actually call them now, and be like āhey!āĀ Ā soĀ you hear other listeners.Ā
EF:Ā Oh my god! We could have called in as we were speaking now.Ā
US:Ā Itās not ā wait,Ā itās not on yet, I think itās ā no, it’s not on. It’s going to be in half an hour. I mean, we can still do that but it wouldn’t necessarily be part of this.Ā
EF:Ā OhĀ right.Ā
US:Ā I did it, like I called in last week, I think. I was very nervous, like really nervous, for someone who, you know ā I do things with performance, IĀ do things with public speaking āĀ but this, I was like: āOh my god, I’m calling in! I’m calling into the show! Oh my god!āĀ Because, youĀ know,Ā it’sĀ also like I’m calling as me. I’m not doing a talk. I’m just like calling my favourite show, saying: āHi! Hello, I’m listening. Thank you!Ā YouĀ guys are great! Can I hear this song and dedicate it to this person? Bye!’ So yeah,Ā these things have shifted. I was propelled to say as the world turns, but I mean maybe that’s not wrong,Ā like as the world turns every week and as you also, rightfullyĀ āĀ it’sĀ importantĀ toĀ alsoĀ dateĀ thisĀ conversationĀ inĀ theĀ middleĀ ofĀ worldwideĀ protests. And like renewed rightful demands for like final change, I wouldĀ say,Ā and the breaking down of racist and white supremacist signs andĀ structuralĀ exclusions,Ā andĀ oppressions,Ā etĀ cetera.Ā Sorry,Ā I hate to sayĀ āetĀ ceteraāĀ with something like that, but I did. Ever since this turn took place, we have been hearing on the radio broadcasted lectures by James Baldwin, different discussions, differentĀ lectures from, and interviews with Angela Davis, and ā I mean, just incredible.Ā
EF:Ā Itās been responsive.Ā
US:Ā Yes,Ā andĀ it’sĀ notĀ beenĀ like:Ā āOh,Ā itāsĀ justĀ theĀ one-day thing, and then, now, we’re back to our, you know, fun daily programming.’Ā It’sĀ justĀ becomeĀ aĀ kindĀ ofĀ integral,Ā dailyĀ thing,Ā likeĀ really responsive, andĀ kindĀ ofāĀ
EF:Ā It provides commentary. Yeah.Ā
US:Ā Yeah, it’s active. It’s like itāsāĀ
EF:Ā Contingent, intuitive, active.Ā
US:Ā Yes, it is so ā it is really also like the sound of the time, it’s not ā I don’t know how to sort of say this properly. I feel like also, weāreāĀ
EF:Ā ItāsĀ good.Ā ItāsĀ good, I can tell ā I think this is a really important point to kind of get to, to close it, about the kind of vibrancy of live contingency, and actually how this station is almost āĀ itāsĀ mobile enough, it’s agile enough. It’s also set itself up as responsive, like for example you mentioned way back āĀ
US:Ā Yeah, responding to the timeāĀ
EF:Ā Yeah ā to the time, and so ā but you know, way back you said about the backstage, kind of āwhere’s the outputā part of the conversation, you know, it’s not set itself up formally, likeĀ I mean, youĀ know,Ā British Broadcasting Corporation Radio 4 every night, we have the broadcast of the update.Ā ObviouslyĀ it’s not that. It’s also not,Ā say,Ā the kind of art stations that are more scheduled. It’s got this kind of scheduling that does surprise, as you’ve been talking about, and this scheduling where it builds identity in time and through time, and can switch it. I mean, it’s a kind of extraordinary tribute in aĀ wayĀ to the best that this time can do inĀ responsive media. I’m really grateful. I’m really thankful to you forĀ introducing me to it,Ā and for you also describing your experiences with it, because those asĀ well have been really ā you used the termĀ āpreciousā. Like: āYou have toĀ listen to this, itās precious!āĀ
US:Ā Yeah.Ā
EF:Ā But it is. It’s also really generous, the way you talk about your own kind of intuitive responses to theirs. And I’m sure that comes through in listening you talk about it for others and not just me. And I really hope it’s still on when people can hear this. I hope itās still going.Ā
US:Ā I know! Oh my god, I am just ā this is the one thing that, whereinĀ I’m not necessarily āĀ like it’s really interesting this live thing, right? It’s live, it’s rightĀ now,Ā it’sĀ happeningĀ now, now, now, now, now,Ā and I’m nervous thinking about a faraway future because I’m like: āNo, I don’t ā I’m just ā I just want.āĀ I mean, I know it can’t, maybe it can’t lastĀ forever,Ā and obviously you know what I mean like there ā it is transient andĀ it responds to time and it responds to like real life, and it is part of real life, obviously. It’s just not IRL in the strictĀ sense but it is real life. AndĀ soĀ I’m just a little bit nervous thinking about anticipating an afterlife or the time when it’s not here anymore. But I think that’s, yeah, that’s one of the strengths and the beauties of it:Ā not knowing.Ā
EF:Ā Yeah, exactly.Ā
US:Ā Not being able to take it for granted.Ā
Transcription by Kalina Petrova
Clips Summary
[00:12:50 to 00:13:40]Ā Ambient sound from a London flat and Radio AlharaĀ
[00:13:40 to 00:14:14] Radio AlharaĀ