Between the Big and the Small Picture: An Interview with RashDash
Abbi Greenland and Helen Goalen formed RashDash in 2009, and ever since its first steps the company has distinguished itself in the UK panorama through a highly individual performance idiom which hybridises musical, corporeal and textual dramaturgies together in a way that defies categorisation.
In this Gallery interview, Greenland and Goalen retrace their journey and give usĀ a glimpse into their working methods, their collaborations, and the social,Ā Ā political and cultural concerns animating the theatre they make and how they choose to make it.
Between the Big and the Small Picture
[00:00:19] INTRO
DuÅ”kaĀ RadosavljeviÄ:Ā Hello!Ā
Today in the Gallery, we meet Abbi Greenland and HelenĀ Goalen, founders of the music, dance and theatre collectiveĀ RashDash. As they recall in this conversation, Abbi and Helen metĀ at university and set upĀ RashDashĀ in 2009. Their musical collaborator Becky Wilkie subsequently joined as a core member of the ensemble. Since their earliest outings at the National Student Drama Festival and the Edinburgh Fringe,Ā RashDashĀ have distinguished themselves through a highly individual performance idiom whichĀ hybridisesĀ musical, corporeal and textual dramaturgies together in a way that defiesĀ categorisation.Ā
In this interview ā a rare one in the series to have been conducted in person before the Covid-19 lockdown ā we retrace the companyās journey over the intervening ten years and talk about the making of some of their memorable hits such as theĀ Two Man Show,Ā premiered in 2017,Ā andĀ Three Sisters,Ā premiered in 2018. The companyās frequently stated idealism, revaluing of the feminine, radical generosity and honest contemplation are present in this conversation too.Ā
The interview took place on 16thĀ January 2020 at the Longfield Hall in South London.Ā
[00:01:42] THE EARLY DAYS
DuÅ”kaĀ RadosavljeviÄ:Ā Thank you very much for making this possible, this conversation. I wanted to have an opportunity to talk to you about your work and howĀ itāsĀ developed over the years. Because your work seems to be very representative of the kind of things Iām looking at as part this project ā the way in which youāve sort of led the way withĀ gig theatre, or what we nowĀ call āgig theatreā, we probably didnāt call it that when you were developing the form. But it seemsĀ to be one of the definitive examples that people often cite when they talk about the form of gig theatre, for example. And I guessĀ itāsĀ probably because of the way in which music is built into the way you make work. I didnāt know that you had a Hull connection and that that was the time and the place you cameĀ together.Ā So maybe just going back there,Ā when was it you were at Hull?Ā
HelenĀ Goalen:Ā WeĀ were there 2006-2009, which now feels like a very long time ago. The first thing we did together, we worked ā because we did the same course at Hull University.Ā SoĀ we did a little bit of work within our course ā we made a very strange thing as part of a module. I donāt even know which module that was, the one with the cogs, it was Arthur and Lancelot and theĀ Knights ā and something about theĀ RoundĀ Table. It was bizarre, it was a kind of bizarre thing. But we enjoyed working together ā we didnāt really enjoy what we made, but we enjoyed working together and experimentingĀ together.Ā And thenĀ weāĀ
Abbi Greenland:Ā I remember bashing little corrugated pieces of metal into ā that we kept calling ācroc dogsā āĀ into bits of wood and then wrapping the wood in cellophaneāĀ
HG:Ā Because we were building our setāĀ
AG:Ā Pressing ourselves up against the cellophane.Ā SoĀ we were making cellophane frames and then being Arthur and Lancelot, wearing suitsāĀ
HG:Ā WeĀ were probably dictators within that process in aĀ really,Ā like, probably not a very nice way but I guess we discovered, in working in thatĀ way,Ā that we had a similar desire for something ā to be something, to be really good. Not that that was really good, but youĀ know,Ā hadĀ a similar kindĀ of drive and energy behind the project. And then we directed something terrible at the Edinburgh Fringe. This was all sort of ā this was pre-RashDash,Ā really,Ā but it was finding a way of workingĀ together,Ā and that was where we saw Do Theatre, that Fringe, which was at the end of our first year at university. And beyond, like, seeing the stuļ¬ we sawĀ thereāĀ
AG:Ā We saw a lot at the Aurora Nova that yearāĀ
HG:Ā We did, yeahāĀ
AG:Ā And seeing Do Theatre together was big in that I donāt think Iād seen theatre without words before. I think Iād seen dance and Iād seen theatreāĀ
HG:Ā Iād seen Gecko by that point I think, because Iād seenĀ The RaceĀ the year beforeāĀ
AG:Ā Yes, I remember that being big for youāĀ
HG:Ā Which, yeah, that was reallyĀ big for me as well. Being like: āOh, theatre can be this weird, experimental, but also fun and dance andāāĀ
AG:Ā And really political āĀ The Race, right? Iām thinking aboutĀ The Arab and the JewāĀ
HG:Ā The RaceĀ was about fatherhood I think, and like the race of life. So yeah, I thinkĀ itāsĀ less political ā but yeah,Ā The Arab and the Jew, I didnāt see that one actually. But yeah, we came away form that festival and were like āĀ again, didnāt really like what we made. Found all that quite difficult, working with lots of people and lots of bodies, but we enjoyed workingĀ together,Ā so āĀ letāsĀ just do somethingĀ thatāsĀ just us! AndĀ letāsĀ perform in it, because that’s the thing that weāreĀ interestedĀ inĀ doingĀ asĀ wellĀ ā like, being performers in the work but making it ourselves and thatāĀ
DR:Ā Just the two of you?Ā
HG:Ā Just the two of us, and that piece was entirely physical, with no words at all. And it was calledĀ Strict Machine. It had a feminist agenda, but not a particularly specificĀ oneāĀ
AG:Ā It wasnāt a very sophisticated message. I think I can remember talking about the glass ceiling a lot when we were making that, which is just hilarious now considering that we wereĀ just atĀ uniĀ and nothing had really got in our way in terms of that. If we were just like: āOh the glass ceilingās awful, we must smash it!āĀ SoĀ we put on black and white suits and made a show about smashing the glass ceiling. And I remember when we took it to the National Student Drama Festival, lots of people were talking to us about this interest in the fact that we had chosen a veryĀ ā80s aesthetic, and we had no idea we had chosen anĀ ā80s aesthetic.Ā SoĀ taking our work to a festival where other students could watch it but also where a load of professionals could watch it was interesting because weĀ realisedĀ how out of control we were of what we were doing. And that we were doing something we liked, but that we werenāt really making strong enough, controlled enough, decisions about all of the messages that we put on stage, outside [of] we just like singing and dancing and weāre feminists.Ā SoĀ the next show we made had a guy in it ā Mark Graham, whoās in Middle Child now ā and we made a show calledĀ Never Enough. This was still atĀ uniĀ as well, it was ourĀ third yearĀ piece.Ā WeĀ took it back to the [National] Student Drama Festival, and I feel like that was around the beginning of the time where we decided: āShall we go oļ¬ and train separately or shall we just do the company thing now?ā And AdamĀ Ledger,Ā who maybe teaches at BirminghamĀ now,Ā but was teaching at Hull at the time said: āIf you start a companyĀ now,Ā then youāll be poor and not knowing what you want to do at the same time as all of your friends are poor and donāt know what they want to do, whereas if you do training, do acting, then get together and start a company in like five or six years, everyone else will have money and know what theyāre doing and youāll be at the beginning again.ā And I remember that being a real strong persuader for me just going: ‘ Yeah, nowāsĀ theĀ timeĀ toĀ doĀ it,Ā nowāsĀ theĀ timeĀ toĀ takeĀ aĀ punt.āĀ
HG:Ā Did he say that to us specifically or was it more of like a general, because I canāt rememberāĀ
AG:Ā He said that to us in his oļ¬ce when weād gone in there saying we might start a company, and he was like: āIf youāre going to do it, do it nowā essentially, which was really good advice. And then we madeĀ Another Someone, which was after we graduated the first show we made. We stayed in HullāĀ
HG:Ā Honeymoon!Ā
AG:Ā Abbi,Ā Honeymoon! [Laughter.] Sorry, Helenās got the better memory. We madeĀ TheĀ HoneymoonĀ which was about two women who were having a double wedding who both decided to run away from their husbands. AnotherāĀ
DR:Ā Was that aĀ RashDashĀ show?Ā
AG:Ā That was aĀ RashDashĀ show.Ā
HG:Ā And that was, in aĀ way,Ā the firstĀ RashDashĀ show,Ā because it was the first one outside of a university environment.Ā SoĀ we took that to Edinburgh, performed it at Bedlam and it also had Becky in it.Ā SoĀ she has been there from the beginning which some people are kind of surprised by because there was a long period where she wasnāt in theĀ company.Ā
AG:Ā ButĀ also because in that one she stood at the back and looked down whenever she wasnāt playing. Hilariously. We had a very unsophisticated approach to music which was, Becky wrote some brilliant songs. I still really like some of the songs from that, although I question a lot of the lyrics. She stood at the back and every so often she would go to the side, pick up a microphone, bring it to the middle, and just sing. I remember people, Holly Kendrick, who was running the Student Festival at the time saying: āThatās fine if thatās what you want to do, but maybe have a think about that.āĀ Because we werenāt reallyĀ in control again, we were: āWe want to sing now and I need the microphone to be in the middle. Itās in the way if itās there all the time.āĀ Kind of low budgetāĀ
HG:Ā And lots of the things that you might ā if someone had been on the outside of a process withĀ usĀ they might have been going: āOh,Ā letāsĀ have a think about how we manage that moment.ā But there was a lot of, I guess, just a lot of stuff that we were ignoring and going: āLetāsĀ just, like, do this in the most functional wayĀ possible.āĀ
AG:Ā Because there was no outside eye or director. And itās always been that ā itās always been led by performers doing what they want to do. I think.Ā
HG:Ā But we knew around the time we were making that last show at the National Student Drama Festival,Ā Never Enough, we were really kind of desperate by that point to have music in the work. And we were going: āHow do we do this, how do we do this?ā,Ā and didnāt feel confident enough to make that happen ourselves, and so bringing Becky in was an amazing thing that really shifted the shows and made them much moreĀ music.Ā
DR:Ā And how did that happen? How did Becky becomeāĀ
HG:Ā Abbiās known Becky for years and yearsāĀ
AG:Ā Me and Becky met when we were 11 at high school.Ā SoĀ itāsĀ one of those things where she was in a school band, and they were really good āĀ itāsĀ not like they played some shitty coversĀ badly.Ā SheāsĀ always been, well, since she learnt to play the piano,Ā sheāsĀ been an excellent pianist.Ā SheāsĀ a brilliant songwriter, and I remember going to gigs when she was 16-17 in the pubs around where local teenage bands playedāĀ
DR:Ā Manchester presumably?Ā
AG:Ā No, I grew up in Suļ¬olk. Around Ipswich/Colchester area ā village pubs. And loads and loads of people would come to their gigs. It wasnāt like: āOh, please comeā, it was always a big event. She was in a band called Charlie Brown that then became Making Eyes at Elvis and they were really good. And I had played a CD of Beckyās high school music to Helen in the kitchen, and Helen had really enjoyed it,Ā and so when I said: āWe could ask Becky to come and write songs forĀ TheĀ Honeymoonā, she was like: āYes, sure!ā Becky was in her second year studying English at Bristol and I think was questioning having abandoned music and feeling like she hadnāt really brought out here musical side at university at all, and yet it was a really big part of her.Ā SoĀ she said: āYes, Iāll come and live in Hull for six weeks and then come toĀ theĀ Edinburgh festival as part of my holidayā, and Iām so glad she did.Ā
[00:12:10] MUSICAL INFLUENCES
DR:Ā And Iām interested to hear a bit more about those musical influences that you brought individually to this space of working together so ā like, you just mentioned that interest inĀ the music scene in Ipswich and so on. And I just want to dig a little deeper there in terms of ā what were other formative influences on you as individuals that you could associate your aesthetic to?Ā
AG:Ā InĀ Strict MachineĀ we sang a song at the beginning of the show ā which was the first show we made together ā I think we rewrote the lyrics to Amanda Palmerās Dresden DollsāĀ āMissedĀ Meā. And I think that Dresden Dolls were a big influence early on, and the kind of ā angry cabaret.Ā
HG:Ā Also MeowĀ MeowĀ as well, but maybe less from a musical point of view,Ā although she is obviously a singer, but more from a performance point of view. But that kind of cabaret world. I think also musical theatre to a certain extent.Ā
DR:Ā As in West End musicals?Ā
HG:Ā Yeah. Kind of, older ones likeĀ Cabaret, the musical. I think I grew up being quite into all of that kind of stuļ¬. Yeah, Camille OāSullivan, I remember as well. ButĀ againĀ being really into her performance, that really bold, semi-improvised, big personality.Ā
AG:Ā But in terms of the music that we were playing in the room ā not necessarily just theĀ music that we were singing to ā we would go from listening to the Chemical Brothers and Prodigy and Orbital andĀ those kind of technoĀ world, to listening to a Finnish band calledĀ TsuumiĀ Sound System that change the time signature in their track every you know five bars and have a wild combination of instruments, to Bjƶrk, to somewhat classical stuļ¬āĀ
HG:Ā And very poppy stuļ¬ like Rhianna and BeyoncĆ© and yeah. And I think your dad was really great at putting in some more obscure world music choices, likeĀ TsuumiĀ Sound SystemĀ that have then led toĀ us being able to discover more and more things.Ā
AG:Ā Because my dad is a musician and he listens to a lot of world music. I remember saying to Ian ā thatās his name ā āWe just want some more music, we just want some more stuļ¬ thatās not got lyrics that we can have in the roomā, and he supplied us with loads. But I remember that coming from being emboldened by seeing Gecko ā again ā so maybe this isĀ The Overcoat, and they use a real smorgasbord of world music in that. It goes from Bulgarian nuns to Elvis or something āĀ croonery, at one point, and I remember just being like: āOh, yeah, we can do that!āĀ
HG:Ā And I think that palette, that diversity of palette, has always been a really excitingĀ thing that weāve looked for, and I think that we really pushed that to its full extent inĀ Three Sisters, being like: āLetās have a rock song, a punk song, a pop song, a ballad, a musical theatre number ā letās just go wild with the genreā, and that was very intentional and really fun to do.Ā
[00:15:32 to 00:17:14] āWorkāĀ fromĀ Three SistersĀ (2018)Ā
HG:Ā ButĀ itāsĀ kind of interesting, I feel like now that weāve done that, we might not on the next thing. AndĀ actually I remember Becky saying recently: āNo more rock! Iāve had enough ā I donāt want a drum kit. I donāt want a guitar. LetāsĀ just make this vocals and piano.āĀ SoĀ we did a sharing of a show calledĀ Mary vs ElizabethĀ which is in development at the moment, which is about Mary Stewart, MaryĀ TudorĀ and Elizabeth the First. AndĀ thatāsĀ got a lot of music in it, but at the moment the only instrumentation is very stripped back drums, a synth and a piano ā it was aĀ grandĀ piano that we were using which was kind of wonderful ā and voices.Ā SoĀ the sound, the spectrum of song is, I guess, is smaller ā but there is still real diversity in that.Ā ThereāsĀ folk andĀ thereāsĀ popĀ andĀ thereāsĀ ā I don’t know how elseĀ IādĀ describeĀ theĀ musicĀ inĀ thatĀ āĀ kindĀ ofĀ rapĀ butĀ in a musical theatre world.Ā
AG:Ā ThatĀ synthyĀ one that I randomly wrote, it feels much more like itās in the world of Yorkie, James Blake–yāĀ
HG:Ā Imogen Heap–y, kind of, yeah. I would describe that as pop, but I guess, a particularāĀ
AG:Ā Just weird it feels like, pop, I feel like, you have a structure to it, and that one justāĀ
HG:Ā Itās not a 4:4 rhythm ā itās more of an experimental pop sound.
[00:18:46] PLACES OF PERFORMANCE
DR:Ā SoĀ going back to Hull, I also remember you saying, that last time when I heard you talk about your work, that what was useful/helpful in that particular kind of training was the way inĀ which you got to make everything.Ā SoĀ it wasnāt just about training to be aĀ performer,Ā training to beĀ aĀ designer,Ā but you actually had to make the sets and so on as part of that time there.Ā WasĀ there a particular reason why either of you chose Hull as aĀ place?Ā
AG:Ā I only put it on my list because there were fiveĀ placesĀ I was interestedĀ in going to and there was a sixth place on the UCAS form, and my mum had gone, so I thought Iāll put down Hull and thatāll just fill up my form. And they were the first people to oļ¬er me an interview. I thoughtĀ Iāll go and IāllĀ practiseĀ interviewing there. And when I went, it felt like none of the students were very interested in egoĀ āĀ or none of the students I met on thatĀ day.Ā They were very friendly, very warm, and I remember somebody ā who I then met when I was there and still know ā said: āIf you get in, you should come here becauseĀ itāsĀ really fun and we all just make stuļ¬.ā And I remember thinking thatāsĀ exactly what I want ā I want to make stuļ¬ with other people who want to makeĀ stuļ¬. I do want to get taught, I do want all the modules,Ā thatāsĀ fab, but the idea of being in a theatre as much as I wanted to be, and no one saying:Ā āOkay,Ā you only have rehearsalsĀ TuesdaysĀ and Thursdays 7 till 9:30ā, which was my youth theatre times ā was yes,Ā hungry,Ā Iām hungry for that! And I think also what I really wanted was to go to Hull and meet someone like you. And it worked! I think I always wanted to start a theatreĀ company.Ā
DR:Ā And what about your choice?Ā
HG:Ā I applied to four universities, I think ā Bristol, Exeter, Royal Holloway and Hull. But I got a place at Royal Holloway and Hull, so was deciding between those two, and I think I alwaysĀ thought I wouldĀ favourĀ Royal Holloway actually. And I did really like it and I enjoyed my interview and it was cool, but I didnāt want to be inĀ Egham. Thatās what it came down to. I was like: āI donāt want to go to university in London and be on the outskirts of London.āĀ And although I was a bit like: āBut whatās HullĀ gonnaĀ be like?!ā, and I was a little bitĀ scepticalĀ in quite a snobby way probably, because of the bad press. And I think Hullās changed a lot, and it being the European Capital of Culture Hull 2017, so much hasĀ happened. But I was a bit like: āHmm, I donāt know.āĀ But it just felt, I was more drawn to it between the two of them. And we just happened to have like the most amazing year and fantastic years above us as well and really aspiring people, really down to earth people, really unpretentiousĀ people.Ā
AG:Ā But also hungry for it. Think about the fact thatĀ RashDashĀ and Middle Child both came out of our year group. Thatās quite like a high percentage of people who are really hungry for it, whatever it is.Ā
DR:Ā And Middle Child have stayed in Hull?Ā
AG:Ā They have, yeahā¦Ā
DR:Ā Why was that, why do you think?Ā
AG: They allĀ āĀ they didnāt form straight out ofĀ uni, they left. Lots of them went to university ā drama school, even. And then Paul Smith,Ā whoāsĀ the director ā I think he wasnāt quite finding what he wanted to find out on his own, and he knew that a lot of his friends,Ā who wereĀ actors who had also graduated from Hull at the same time as us, werenāt.Ā SoĀ he said:Ā āAnyone,ā āĀ he sent a big group email and was like: āAnyone who wants to come and be part of the beginningā ā I think he wrote a manifesto, I think he went totally old school on it. Wrote a manifesto ā everyone came and there were 13 of them initially that said they wanted to move back to Hull because they identified a place that there was a need for it and where they wouldnāt be crowded out. I think they were all felling like: āWhat the fuck’s here for us in London,Ā itāsĀ veryĀ crowdedāāĀ
HG:Ā And Hull is very cheap to live in as well.Ā
AG:Ā You can be poor thereāĀ
HG:Ā The whole setting up a company thing feels more doable in a place like that as well as that thing of their being a need for it. Theyāre not, yeah,Ā itāsĀ not saturated and, again,Ā thereāsĀ loads more going on there now I think, but at that time it was: āOh, we could be really useful here as well as have space to make things.āĀ
AG:Ā Not have to work all of the hours just to pay rent, therefore we can do this theatre company thing.Ā
DR:Ā SoĀ they chose that other option that Adam was talking about? The option of going to train and then coming back toāĀ
HG:Ā Yeah, exactly because a lot of them did do that, they did postgrads in acting or directing. And they came back together. They were really inspired by that article, werenāt they, I always forget which Mike it isā¦Ā
AG:Ā MikeĀ [Bradwellās]Ā āSteal aĀ vanā, that oneāĀ
HG:Ā āSteal aĀ vanā, yeah ā just like ā do your own thing, because youāll probably get more out of it. I remember, yeah, I remember that being quite formative.Ā
DR:Ā SoĀ when you madeĀ Another SomeoneĀ which was probably the show that put you on the map, is that correctā?
HG:Ā Yeah.Ā
DR:Ā It was the three of you and a couple of other people?Ā
AG:Ā Mark Graham, againāĀ
DR:Ā Ah, there was a guyā¦Ā
AG:Ā SoĀ heās in Middle Child and heād been in our graduation show I guess,Ā Never Enough.Ā SoĀ it was the four of us on stage right, there was no one else?Ā
HG:Ā Yeah.Ā
AG:Ā And that was when Becky went from being on the piano at the back to being on the piano at the front and talking.Ā
DR:Ā Okay. Okay. Was it described as āgig theatreā at the time?Ā
AG:Ā I donāt think so.Ā
HG:Ā I donāt think so, no. I think it was ā I remember people struggling a bit with the definition of it, but in quite an interesting way, like: āWhat do we call this?ā Itās not musical theatre, but itās not a play, but itās like, itās a show, there are songs in itā¦Ā
DR:Ā And it had dance in it as wellāĀ
HG:Ā Yes.Ā
AG:Ā I feel the first time anyone called what we did a gig was when we madeĀ Scary GorgeousĀ and thatās because we were working with a band and they had electrical instruments, and so it felt like it, it felt more like ā the song parts of the show felt more like a gig than theatre.Ā
DR:Ā That was the next show afterĀ Another Someone?Ā
AG:Ā Yeah, it was.Ā
DR:Ā And was that also in Edinburgh, is that where you launched theāĀ
AG:Ā Yeah,Ā Bedlam again. We worked with a band called Not Now Bernard with thatāĀ
HG:Ā And that show felt much more overtly political, I suppose, because it was about pornography.Ā
AG:Ā It was the first of our shows about pornāĀ
HG:Ā Yeah, because we felt like ā itās a very difficult thing to make a show about, and we felt like with that show we hadnāt got to the core of what we wanted to say, and maybe we didnāt with the next attempt either. But yeah, I think that felt like a shift for that reason,Ā Scary Gorgeous, because we were like: āOh, thereās this thing that feels like itās really aļ¬ecting the relationships of young people, and letās examine that, letās talk about that.āĀ
DR:Ā And did you at some point ā because I remember reading about one of your shows being co-produced by Latitude or LatitudeĀ FestivalĀ being somehow involved. This is also interesting that you talked about the NSDF ā so there was the NSDF, and then Edinburgh, and then Latitude came on the scene at some pointāĀ
AG:Ā Really it was the Lyric Hammersmith, so at that point they were commissioning companies that were kind of new to make outdoor work. They were the people commissioning but the money came from Lyric, Greenwich and Docklands International Festival, Latitude, and was there aĀ fourth?Ā
HG:Ā Imagine, Watford.Ā
AG:Ā Imagine, Watford!Ā
DR:Ā And which piece was that?Ā
AG:Ā We made bothĀ Set Fire to EverythingĀ andĀ The FrenzyĀ with that group of commissionersāĀ
DR:Ā And when was that roughly?Ā
AG:Ā 2012-13 because it was two years in a row.Ā
DR:Ā Was that your first outdoors [show]?Ā
AG:Ā Yes.Ā Set Fire to EverythingĀ was firstāĀ
HG:Ā I was going to say first and last, but thatās not true because we madeĀ The Darkest Corners. Quite hard working outside. Iām not a massive fan.Ā
DR:Ā The reason Iām asking you about this is because Iām wondering to what extent the producing model might contribute to the form? If you knew that you were making work for a particular kind of venue or a particular kind of context ā letās say the Edinburgh festival or the LatitudeĀ Festival ā would that determine, or did that determine the choices you were making in terms of how you were making the show?Ā
HG:Ā I think it did. For those outdoor shows, it was quite specific what they needed to be, because the Lyric said to us: āIt needs to be no longer than half an hour, I think. It has to be able toĀ
be repeated, like, three times a day. People need to be able to come across it and immediately access it or get something from it.āĀ
AG:Ā But what I would say is the other companies that were commissioned at the same time, because they commissioned four each time, responded to exactly the same brief, but chose not to put live music in there.Ā SoĀ I think that was more ā thatĀ thatāsĀ how we approach taking hold of a space. Because one of the other things they said was: āThe rhythm has kind of got to change every three or four minutes, because people will be with you and then, if it stays the same after that long ā theyāre oļ¬, so youāve got to keep changing it!ā And we decided to do that ā take hold of a space with live music, but the other companiesĀ didnāt.Ā
[00:28:48] TAKING CONTROL
DR:Ā At what point did youĀ recogniseĀ you were starting to take control of your work? Because you were saying how the early stages was not so much about being in controlā¦Ā
AG:Ā Two Man Show.Ā
DR:Ā Okay.Ā
HG:Ā Really ā would you say not until then?Ā
AG:Ā Yeah, I would say we definitely tried. We definitely tried to be in control,Ā we increased our ā I think every time we made more and more meaningful, controllable decisions, but I donāt think that we madeĀ what we meant to make untilĀ Two Man Show. I thinkĀ Two Man ShowĀ was the first time where I was like: āYeah, thatās what I mean.āĀ I think every other time before that, we got to the end and I was like: āOkay, so this is what we made ā itās definitely not what I planned, but here we are and I like it.āĀ Itās the first time that when people asked me questions about it, Iām not like:Ā āOh yeah whoops!ā about anything.Ā
HG:Ā Yeah. Because I feel like there was a bit of a shift that happened aroundĀ The Ugly SistersĀ actually, but we came in and out after that time, but I felt like something kind of landed in thatĀ show.Ā There was something kind of simple about that show in aĀ way.Ā It was like, the story was quite simple. But I think there was something about the genre that felt kind of whole, in a way that it hadnāt doneĀ before.Ā
AG:Ā I feel like that is when we took control of the form. That is when we made a load of decisions that were like: ‘Yes,Ā that costume makes sense and that,Ā yeah weāre not just wearing black leggings so no one sees our bum, whichĀ isĀ essentiallyĀ whatĀ weādĀ doneĀ everyĀ otherĀ show.Ā The costumes madeĀ sense, the set made sense. Weād worked with a designer,Ā and kind of for the first time?Ā
HG:Ā Yes, I think, probably, yeah.Ā
AG:Ā There was the concept ā we saw through a concept from beginning to end that we intended to see through ā but what we were saying was kind of underwhelming and obvious and not very radical.Ā
HG:Ā It was like a fun show.Ā
AG:Ā Yeah, we took control of all of the things that meant ā everything meant what we meant it to mean, I think, but what we actually meant wasnāt that great. Whereas atĀ Two Man Show, form and content came together for the first time.Ā
HG:Ā Yes, I would agree with that.Ā
[00:30:48 to 00:32:51] āI Thought I CouldĀ TellĀ YouāĀ fromĀ TwoĀ Man ShowĀ (2017)
[00:32:52] RASHDASH DRAMATURGY
DR:Ā Was that the first script that you published?Ā
AG:Ā Yes.Ā Two Man ShowĀ was.Ā
DR:Ā Because I was just reading yesterday the interview on your website with Maddy Costa in which you talked about at that time ā whenever that interview was taken ā that you were working with Alice Birch because you felt that as writers you werenāt able ā has that changed, do you feel that thatās changed sinceĀ Two Man Show?Ā
AG:Ā The intention has changed. I think weāre both more interested in writing and being good at writing than we were then.Ā
HG:Ā And Iām not sure, actually. I feel like Iām in a process of thinking about that. Because I definitely, when we started working with Alice, particularly, I kind of went: āOh, I donāt want to do writing anymore, because youāre a proper playwrightā, and I really enjoyed working with her in thatĀ way.Ā And then Abbi quite quickly after that got more interested in writing again and did prettyĀ much all of the writing for the company that is text, characterĀ text.Ā
AG:Ā Not lyrics.Ā
HG:Ā And then more recently, Iāve kind of gone: āOh, but maybe I miss the grappling with text again.āĀ But Iām personally not sure, Iām just in a bit of a process at the moment of trying to work out whether thatās a thing I want to do more of, or whether I was right the first time in going: āNo, Iāll leave that there.āĀ
DR:Ā It was a very interesting script. The script ofĀ Two Man Show. In the sense that it had photographs, it had drawings. It had, you know, and also what was quite striking about it for me was this decision to credit it to the company rather than to the individuals who might have written the words. Itās something that has broken a lot of ensembles, this idea of who do you attribute the script to.Ā
AG:Ā Three SistersĀ is different. I think we say ā lyrics by Abbi, Helen andĀ Becky,Ā text by Abbi, with Helen andĀ Becky,Ā because although I assembled the words, lots of the words have come from free writing that everyone had done, so it is a lot more…Ā ItāsĀ a tricky one, I feel likeĀ itāsĀ nice to be clear in crediting so that people know how it comes together ā I donāt know whether this is just a British thing, but it does feel like there is such an emphasis on words in British theatre that the reason that we have been so particular about what we do when, who we say does what, specifically with words, because you notice that no one really cares who came up with the idea ā original, and all of that stuļ¬.Ā ItāsĀ because people think the writer kind of invents it, butĀ thereāsĀ just so much invention that goes on between all of us,Ā thereāsĀ so many discoveries that are made thatĀ itāsĀ impossible to find the percentage of that idea, whoĀ it belongsĀ to.Ā
HG:Ā Because itās alchemy, and thatās like one of the exciting things about working. But I think it also depends on the process as well, becauseĀ Two Man ShowĀ andĀ Three SistersĀ were quite devised processes where a lot happened in the room or together in terms of discoveries. Not everything, but quite a lot. But then there are other processes that we might do that are more written and then other elements get added in, so I guess that would then be a different thing in terms of how to credit that and how to talk about that.Ā
AG:Ā But they havenāt really come to fruition yet.Ā
HG:Ā No, noā¦Ā
AG:Ā Thatās the thing ā none of the things where weāve worked differently, thatās kind of something that weāve been working on a few of those projects for a while but none of them have happened yet.Ā SoĀ itās hard to know how a relationship with writing has changed until itās changed. Itās just in the process of changing.Ā
DR:Ā And can you describe your process then? What happens when you have the initial kernel for an idea? And then, how does it develop into a show?Ā
AG:Ā It really changes from show toĀ show.Ā The processĀ characterisesĀ the form and the formĀ characterisesĀ the content. AndĀ of courseĀ the people in the roomĀ characteriseĀ the process, soĀ it goes: people ā process ā form ā content, in terms of those ripples in. And I think weāre becoming clearer and clearer on that, so getting the people inĀ theĀ roomĀ toĀ beginĀ with,Ā andĀ with our next show ā which if we get the fundingĀ forĀ we will make with my mum and a musician calledĀ YusufĀ Ahmed who is a jazz drummer ā the process is very different because of those people and what they bring in the room. Theyāre actually both ā even though theyāve never met each other before working together ā really interested in Carl Jung and his philosophy and his work with subconscious.Ā SoĀ our process, which is firmly rooted in the conscious, I think, is suddenly being completely disrupted by people who are interested in the subconscious. And that is going to make that process very different, because, I imagine, weāll go more into āauthentic movementā, weāll go more into processes that allow subconscious to flow through, which weāve never explored. But withĀ Three Sisters, we went on a journey that was ā we were angry with theĀ play,Ā we were angry that we had to do a piece from the canon in order to be taken a certain kind of seriously. AndĀ soĀ the first thing we thought we would do was do the play without having read theĀ play.Ā I mean weāve all read the play and seen the play at various stages but not refresh, [would] do no refreshing. AndĀ actuallyĀ then what we ended up doing was reading theĀ play,Ā everyone took out the quotes from the play no matter who saidĀ themāĀ
DR:Ā You already had all five people in the room at the start?Ā
AG:Ā This was initially just Helen, Becky and I. And that was a funding decision. We couldnāt apply for more than Ā£50,000 because we thought we wouldnāt get the funding.Ā SoĀ we only had the musicians join us after a lot of the original concept work had been done. Which is a shame, andĀ I would like to have done it differently.Ā
DR:Ā SoĀ you went through the script?Ā
AG:Ā WentĀ through the script, everyone took out the words that they liked, that they thought: āThis does resonate with me.āĀ Because that thing that people always say about the canon, where they are like: āBut it still resonates years onā, andĀ itāsĀ like:Ā āWell,Ā some of it really fucking doesnāt.āĀ SoĀ we took out the stuļ¬ that did, no matter whether it was a man or a woman, and weĀ were like: āIĀ wannaĀ say that.āĀ And then we also wrote things that we wanted to say in aĀ drawing room, so if you put the three of us in a drawing room and you said: āJust talk about your livesā, we wrote some stuļ¬ that we were thinking about, and then we mushed themĀ together,Ā and we gave them the structure, the four–act structure thatĀ Three SistersĀ has, which is: in the first oneĀ itāsĀ IrinaāsĀ birthday, and theyāre going to have a party that night, or going to have dinner that night. In the second one,Ā thereāsĀ a party that evening that doesnāt happen. In the third one,Ā thereāsĀ a fire somewhere, and that became a kind of version of Grenfell in our third act. And inĀ the fourth one, people are leaving, and that became we all moved to London, now everyoneās movingĀ away.Ā SoĀ we tried to find the parallels between the undercurrent thingĀ thatāsĀ happening in each act which held the drawing room scenesĀ together.Ā And in between, we said:Ā āWeāllĀ do those drawing room scenes, but in between weāll just sing songs and dance about stuļ¬ we want to sing songs and dance about.āĀ So that became the songs that we wrote, but also it became us talkingĀ about arts and bashing our heads against the fact that we were supposed to be reproducing the work of dead white men in order to be taken seriously asĀ artists.Ā
DR:Ā At what point do the songs come into the process and how? I mean is it ā that classic question: Does it start with music or with text?Ā
HG:Ā They come in quite early I think, normally. Often things are sort of happening concurrently, so weāre having dramaturgical conversations and going: āOh, what about āĀ okay,Ā do we have this spaceĀ thatāsĀ the drawing room where we all get to talk?āĀ Yeah,Ā we were talking a lot about rooms in that particular show in the development processĀ andĀ talkingĀ aboutĀ āĀ yes,Ā thisĀ mainĀ drawing room, and these solo rooms that come oļ¬ it.Ā SoĀ IrinaāsĀ got her room, andĀ OlgaāsĀ got her room, andĀ MashaāsĀ got her room. What [is] in those rooms?Ā SoĀ everything was kind of happening at once, which would be dependent sometimes on what we fancied doing thatĀ day.Ā And if someone fancied writing some lyrics, or we all fancied writing some lyrics, then: āOh,Ā okay,Ā thereāsĀ something for Becky to start writing some music toā, and now songs arrived. But then songs were still getting written like right up until the very end and one of them we only finished in tech. So yeah, I think they keep going through.Ā
AG:Ā But we swing between the big picture and the small picture, so we go:Ā āWeĀ think weāreĀ making this, and we start making stuļ¬.āĀ Then we go:Ā āOkay,Ā weāve made this stuļ¬ and it doesnāt fit in that big structureā, so that big structure changes.Ā āOkay,Ā so we think weāre making this.ā And we never really solve the problem until previews.Ā WeĀ never solve what the dramaturgical structure is until right then. Making small bits of the show means weāre creating problems weāve got to dramaturgically solve later. But that’s how we do it, and that’s how we did Two Man Show,Ā asĀ well ā a version of that ā continuing to make stuļ¬ even though we donāt know the shape weāre going to put that stuļ¬ in. But then as soon as youāve made something you like enough that is the heart of theĀ show,Ā weāre like:Ā āWell,Ā we know that this is in the show so now we have to find aĀ dramaturgical structure that means that makes sense.āĀ ThatāsĀ how we do itĀ really,Ā isnātĀ it? We create problems to solve.Ā
HG:Ā And create things that we really like that feel like the most important thing.Ā
AG:Ā And usually things we really like are movement or music. I feel like the things we really likeĀ are very rarely text. Maybe Man/WomanĀ [Two Man Show]Ā was one of those text problems for us at one point, but usually it was ā it wasnāt Dan and John, they werenāt the problems to solve. The things that we really loved, like theĀ āReviewsāĀ rap ā we knew that was in there, and we knew it was towards the end,Ā thatāsĀ just a problem to solve. ButĀ thatāsĀ in it. You know.
DR:Ā In theĀ Three Sisters?Ā
AG:Ā In theĀ Three Sisters, yeah.Ā
DR:Ā And does Becky always respond to the lyrics or does she bring music sometimes?Ā
AG:Ā It never starts with music. Although actuallyāĀ
HG:Ā Sometimes it doesāĀ
AG:Ā She had a riļ¬ for years that sheād been waiting for, and sheĀ realisedĀ it was for this.Ā
[00:43:12 to 00:48:28] āReviewsā fromĀ Three SistersĀ (2018)Ā
DR:Ā Was theĀ Two Man ShowĀ different then to theĀ Three SistersĀ you just described in terms of how it came about, because it was smaller and more intimate?Ā
HG:Ā The process started with just the two of us, Becky actually came in later to that one. And it first of all started with a lot of reading and a lot of research, which is sometimes a really important part of our process.Ā SoĀ we were doing reading about the origins of patriarchy, we were going to the British Library and reading a lot about language and when language or the British language was first written down and how grammar was created and all of that kind of stuļ¬. Learning about how āheā was the pronoun that wasāĀ
AG:Ā More comprehensive than āsheāāĀ
HG:Ā Yeah, just all of this stuļ¬ about how patriarchy is instilled in language and therefore how do we think in a non-patriarchal realm if we think it through language.Ā
DR:Ā SoĀ this moment or the fact of writing down solidified patriarchy? Is that whatāĀ
HG:Ā Yeah, or contributed in developing it ā instilling it.Ā
AG:Ā Well, itās when you say this is right and this is wrong, because everyoneās using language in various ways, but then the minute that you ban women from education and from writing stuļ¬ down but you say: āThis is how itās doneāāĀ
HG:Ā AndĀ alsoĀ trivialiseĀ some of the ways in which ā which are traditionally female to speak. Like gossip ā being one of them, even though actually gossip and those kinds of conversations are really important in terms of the way we relate to eachĀ other,Ā butĀ itāsĀ kind ofĀ likeāĀ
AG:Ā Talking about your feelings means gossip.Ā
HG:Ā Thatās not important.Ā SoĀ all of that hierarchy. So yeah, that gave us loads of material and we did loads of writing actually that could have been in a show. But we had a feeling that it wasnāt, that nothing was really right.Ā
AG:Ā It was all a bit on the nose, all a bit like: āThis is what we think about the patriarchyā, which is not what we wanted to make. Although it did make its way in in one way because we did decide to start the show with the speech about the origins ofĀ patriarchy.Ā
HG:Ā Yeah.Ā SoĀ we kind of went in to a rehearsal room at Northern Stage with a lot of thatĀ stuļ¬.Ā
AG:Ā Had we seen AngĆ©lica Liddell by that point?Ā
HG:Ā I think so, yeah.Ā
AG:Ā Because I wonder whether she was a massive influence on us in terms of the fact that she stood on stage and talked for three hours.Ā
HG:Ā She was. I think she was.Ā
DR:Ā Who?Ā
AG:Ā She was a Spanish performance artist and we saw her at theĀ SchaubühneĀ in Berlin, and it was about lots of stuļ¬. At one point it was about motherhood, at one point it was about Victoria.Ā At one point it was about Peter Pan. And she would talk, talk, talk about what she thought, and she was hoarse by the end of it, and then every so often she would sing āThe House of the Rising Sunā, and then talk again. And we saw her and thought:Ā āWeĀ can say whatever we want.Ā WeĀ can absolutely start the show with an essay aboutĀ patriarchy.āĀ
DR:Ā And she was improvising the whole thing?Ā
AG:Ā No, I donāt think she was. She actually at one point, for half an hour of the show, she bought in an entire orchestra and two dancers too, that danced to about four or five pieces. Ballroom dance, five songs, five tracks, and then they went oļ¬, and the show continued.Ā
HG:Ā It was epic!Ā
[00:51:53] THE ENSEMBLE DYNAMIC
DR:Ā Can we talk a little bit about that aspect of how you work together? The alchemy, the actual dynamic within the ensemble?Ā
HG:Ā Quite often we just agree.Ā
AG:Ā Thatās true, I mean obviously, there are moments where we donātāĀ
DR:Ā All three of you orāĀ
HG:Ā Itās quite hard to unpick actually.Ā
AG:Ā Becky prefers to respond and, she also detests conflict. Youāre not a massive fan of conflictāĀ
HG:Ā NoāĀ
AG:Ā But Becky is seriously conflict-averse. AndĀ soĀ sheāll have an opinion but sheās not really interested in back and forth until itās solved.Ā UsuallyĀ she comes with the music and itās really great first time and sometimes weāre like: āDo it againā, and sheās like: āYeah.āĀ Thatās pretty much how it goes with Becky ā itās very, sheās very easy-going. She gets very frustrated with herself when she doesnāt solve something immediately. But in terms of that,Ā how we work together, itās very tricky, and I feel like weāre quite nervous about talking about it. Because sometimes itās very important for us to name it and say what it is, and sometimes it feels like we might break it by naming it. I donāt know whether thatās right whether you feel like that.Ā
HG:Ā Yeah, I donāt knowāĀ
AG:Ā Iām nervous to say what I think, because I donāt want to piss you oļ¬āĀ
HG:Ā Yeah, butĀ alsoĀ Iām like: āWhat do you think?ā ButĀ alsoĀ Iām likeāĀ
AG:Ā But sometimes when I say what I think, youāre like: āThatās not how it goes!āāĀ
DR:Ā SoĀ I guess thatās some sort of mutual respect for each otherās boundaries at the core of it in a way?Ā
AG:Ā Yeah, and weāve been working together for ten years now, and we lived together for three of thoseĀ years. Itās a very ā it can be a very intense relationship. Much less so these last fewĀ years. Because, I donāt know I guess we just ā our lives outside of the company have become fuller and therefore thatās taken some of the pressure oļ¬ it.Ā
DR:Ā And do you see it terms of any particular compatibilities? My previous project wasĀ about ensemble theatre and I was interviewing various kinds of ensembles, and various ensemble models emerged from that. One that I found interesting was being told about how in oneĀ particular ensemble what really helped it was the way in which each core member kind of brought a very specific function to the working of the whole ā the whole became greater than the sum of its parts because everybody took a very particularĀ role.Ā
AG:Ā Itās difficult because I feel like when we started theĀ companyĀ we started it because we both wanted to do the same thing. AndĀ actuallyĀ that makes it sometimes hard when it feels like we couldnāt or shouldnāt in this particular story. Thatās like: āWho gets to do that bit? And who gets to do that bit?ā Itās sad not to get to do everything you want to do ā not just in terms of what we do in making and performing, but also what we do outside of that for likeĀ strategisingĀ and administrating, and that kind of thing. Itās takenĀ us a really long time to do different bits of that as well. Itās only very recently that weāve become almost solely responsible for different parts of administrating the company as well, because weād both just do everything. And that took a lot of communicating all the time, because if an email comes in and either one can respond you have to decide whoās going to respond rather than just knowing thatās my job.Ā
HG:Ā Iām sure, I knowĀ that we do have, like, quite different things that we bring ā and maybe itās fine⦠I donāt know, itās hard. One of the thingsĀ I find hard about naming the different things that we bring is that obviously itās quite particular when youāre working in a dynamic with someone, because you kind of complement each other, and you sort ofĀ yingĀ and yang, and you fit together and you, kind of, make it work. And sometimes I feel like, in going: āIām this and youāre thisā, I worry for myself, because I donāt know how you feel, that I will then say to myself: āI donāt do thatā, in another context. And I thinkĀ thatāsĀ something Iām conscious of for myself of not wanting to shut down, just becauseĀ itāsĀ not my natural instinct in thisĀ dynamicāĀ
AG:Ā Because it might be your instinct in a different dynamic.Ā
HG:Ā Yes,Ā exactly.Ā AndĀ thatāsĀ purely a self-preservation thing of just making sure that my own narrative about myself doesnāt become entirely dependent on this dynamic because this mightĀ not always be the way that we do things. For a number of reasons. Like if one of us takes timeĀ oļ¬, or has aĀ baby,Ā or like, youĀ know,Ā things might change and I canāt be scared of: āOh, but I donāt do that bitā, because I suppose I doĀ wantāĀ
AG:Ā To grow, stillāĀ
HG:Ā Yeah, and to find new things.Ā
AG:Ā I feel like thatās the negative side of it. For me, the positive side of naming āitā, sometimes, is that I donāt have to try and be good at something Iām not good at.Ā SoĀ like, I know that I really struggle towards the end of a process when weāre in previews, and weāve already put all of this energy into getting so far, continuing to keep making the show better and better, I donāt have the same finishing capacity as Helen does. I like making massive changes, I like going: āWeāve done thisĀ wrong,Ā weāre going to rearrange all five scenes and weāre going to do it backwards, and thatās right!ā And I like the big solutions, I like the big dramaturgical shifts, and Iām satisfied by them, and Iām like: āDone!ā But I am really terrible at: āJust let that be one last moment there, and then this light needs to go two seconds slower.āĀ That kind of detail stuļ¬, I like not having to be good at that, because Iām not, and it makes me quite stressed, I think, and then I can be a more agitated, angry version of myself in tech, which is a really important time in a rehearsal process. If Iām doing that, it takes me so much of my energy because thatās not what Iām good at, that I become a less nice version of myself, and then it also takes my energy away from being a good performer.Ā SoĀ itās nice for me to go: āHelenās got that.ā Iāll see what I see, but I donāt need to squeeze something that isnāt there, that I havenāt got.Ā
HG:Ā Because I guess in one of the simple versions of going:Ā āHow do we complement each other?ā is by going: āAbbi’s really good at starting, and Iām good at finishing.āĀ And Abbi gets a lot of energy from coming up with an idea, and beginning a process, and just the sort of ā the imagining thing. And sometimes I feel a bit like: āOh, god, weāve got to start at the very beginning.āĀ And that can feel quiteĀ heavy and daunting, but that particularly is one of the things thatāĀ
AG:Ā We donāt want to buy intoāĀ
HG:Ā Yeah, I suppose I canāt buy into that too much, because I donāt want to entirely go: āOh, well, I never have to do thatā, even though sometimes itās really nice not to have to do that. But actually, when I was running a workshop recently in Leeds, I actually chose to run a workshop about starting projects because ā and I held my hand up at the beginning and went: āI find this a daunting thing and I work with someone who is very good at doing it. And I could⦠If we continue to work together for the rest of our careers, I could go: āI never have to do that bitā, but I donātĀ think I want to, so Iāve got some ideas of how to start finding material to work with āĀ letāsĀ all doĀ thatā, which was interesting. AndĀ itāsĀ definitely something Iām trying to work on for myself because, yeah, I guess, then it feels to me⦠AndĀ of courseĀ itāsĀ always particular from the position that you’re in, but when you talk about finding it relaxingĀ becauseĀ youĀ donātĀ haveĀ toĀ endĀ a project, I feel like you’ll always be able to find people to do that for you, youĀ knowĀ whatĀ IĀ meanāĀ
AG:Ā Yeah, because I canāt do it on my own, I just donāt think I have itāĀ
HG:Ā That feels like a simpler thing, whereas finding a starting point feels to me like a more essential thing ā if we were to not work together, I suppose. Unless I was to work on a ā unless I was to collaborate with some else who was like: āOh, what about thisā, and then I could⦠But as I say, thatās me coming from my particular position, and you might go: āActually, no, I donāt agree with that at all and theyāre both equallyāāĀ
AG:Ā I donāt know. I guess, if I think about directing something on my own, because thatās the situation in which Iād be trying to finish something to a high standardāĀ
HG:Ā And the finishing is a big job in directing.Ā
AG:Ā Iām like: āFuck, I donāt want to, I donāt want to!āĀ
DR:Ā You recently had to do that, didnāt you, at the Royal Court?Ā
AG:Ā YeahĀ we directedĀ HoleĀ at the Royal CourtāĀ
HG:Ā We directed two shows last year actually, not last year the year before.Ā
AG:Ā Last year was a disaster, the year before we directed two shows.Ā
DR:Ā And how was that for you?Ā
AG:Ā Directing?Ā
DR:Ā I sawĀ HoleĀ and, yeah, Iām just interested how was that for you?Ā
HG:Ā Itās quite hard.Ā
DR:Ā What do people expect from you when they ask you too actually direct?Ā
AG:Ā Hard to knowāĀ
HG:Ā YeahāĀ
AG:Ā Hard to know whether they want it because ā the thing is, our work has us in it and itās so different when weāre not in it.Ā
[01:01:58] āGIG THEATREā AND BEYOND
DR:Ā I just wanted to ask you also ā Iām not sure that I actually got a clear sense of how you feel about your work being described as āgig theatreā. How do you feel about that label?Ā
HG:Ā I donāt love it as a label actuallyāĀ
AG:Ā Me neitherāĀ
HG:Ā And I think it feels like ā I donāt know, this is probably just my personal associations with it as well ā but it feels like, kind of loud and brash and like ā a knowable thing. You know what youāre going to get from a piece of gig theatre. And I really donāt⦠I wouldnāt want ā even though thatās probably quite useful branding in some way ā I wouldnāt want anyone coming to our show and going: āThis is exactly what Iām going to getā, because I think I want to be able to be a bit more surprising than that.Ā
AG:Ā SlipperyāĀ
HG:Ā YeahāĀ
AG:Ā My problem with it is ā it feels like a brand, and I donāt really want to be making workĀ thatāsĀ in a brand. I want to be making ā yeah, slipperyĀ work.Ā
HG:Ā And I actually donāt think ā I mean, I havenāt seen one of our shows ā but I donāt think our shows do feel like gig theatreāĀ
AG:Ā Depends what gig ā when we went to Bjƶrk at Cornucopia the other day, I was like: āThis is wildā¦!āĀ
HG:Ā Thatās true...Ā
AG:Ā ButĀ alsoĀ I do like going to shows that call themselves gig theatre.Ā
HG:Ā Yeah, me tooāĀ
AG:Ā SoĀ itās not about not liking gig theatre, itās about not feeling like I am it. I really do like Middle Childās workāĀ
HG:Ā YeahĀ me tooāĀ
AG:Ā I like shows that are gigs, I really like gigs, I really like theatre.Ā
DR:Ā Interesting! OkayāĀ
HG:Ā ThatāsĀ whyĀ itāsĀ interesting that you say we were amongst the first to do it ā which I also really like and kind of go: āOh,Ā thatāsĀ really cool that youĀ recogniseĀ thatā, but then I alsoĀ feel,Ā like, weāre moving past that maybe as well.Ā
DR:Ā Thatās really interesting because actually you have mentioned the way you use music is changing and you have talked about having several things on the go that might take on new forms and so on. Do you have a vision of whereĀ RashDashĀ might be in five yearsā time?Ā
AG:Ā NoĀ weāre in a big transitional moment, I think. I think weāre really struggling to make the transition from ā I guess, small–scale studioĀ workĀ emerging company to mid-career artists with various options. I think weāre struggling, and weāre about to start working with a new producer that will hopefully really change how we approach that. WeāreĀ working on various ideas of various forms.Ā ThereāsĀ a lot of ideas.Ā WeāreĀ also thinking about making a small film. And thinking about making a project that entirely is a gig.Ā ItāsĀ not gig theatre,Ā itāsĀ just a gig.Ā So I don’t know.Ā And I feel likeĀ itāsĀ notĀ goodĀ notĀ toĀ know,Ā butĀ itĀ doesnātĀ reallyĀ changeĀ theĀ factĀ IĀ donātĀ know.Ā
HG:Ā It feels hard to predict at this pointĀ whatāsĀ going to be theĀ āthingā. I donātĀ know,Ā I have this sense that like there’s goingĀ toĀ beĀ aĀ āthingā,Ā andĀ thatĀ willĀ shiftĀ theĀ directionĀ inĀ someĀ way.Ā NotĀ thatĀ itĀ will necessarily be like: āAnd thenĀ thatāsĀ just the thing that we do!ā But like thereāll be some sort of āoh, okay!ā, but there might be a few of them. It might be like ā big musical, short film develops into something more of a film, and then a music project, and they might all kind of be tentacleĀ arms for the company that continue for a few years. Or it might be something totally different, butĀ it definitely feels like weāre sort of sitting in a soup ofĀ potentials.Ā
DR:Ā Great!Ā
AG:Ā Thatās a nice way of saying thatā¦Ā [Laughter.]Ā
HG:Ā Hopefully theyāre potentials!Ā
DR:Ā Thatās great! Thank you so much.Ā
Transcription by Matthew PowellĀ &Ā DuÅ”kaĀ RadosavljeviÄ
Clips Summary
[00:15:32 to 00:17:14] āWorkā fromĀ Three SistersĀ (2018)Ā
[00:30:48 to 00:32:51] āI Thought I CouldĀ TellĀ YouāĀ fromĀ TwoĀ Man ShowĀ (2017)Ā
[00:43:12 to 00:48:28] āReviewsā fromĀ Three SistersĀ (2018)Ā